Making Bank with ClickBank
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Thomas “McChapo” McMahon is the Sr. Business Development Manager and Brand Ambassador for ClickBank who has onboarded over $100 mil in new sales on ClickBank and he also added over a DOZEN new platinum offers in 2019 alone… His super powers are helping businesses scale their customer acquisition and revenue through direct response marketing channels and recognizing the potential of connecting two people or businesses and sparking that first engagement.
This is an edited version of the audio interview linked above.
Dee Braun: Hi, Thomas, how are you today?
Thomas McMahon: Doing very well. Yeah, it’s a beautiful sunny day in Boise. So, we’re going to be getting outside later and enjoying some of that. There’s been some aftershocks that I haven’t felt personally, but we’re doing okay. Now the apocalypse seems to be holding back a little bit right now, so.
Dee Braun: Good. I was starting to worry about Yellowstone. I’m like, that’s all we need. Well, on top of all of this other stuff.
Thomas McMahon: You know, I think that would put a lot of our worries to rest though, if it did.
Dee Braun: Well, we wouldn’t be here to worry.
Thomas McMahon: Exactly. Exactly.
Dee Braun: So tell me first off, what is your position with ClickBank?
Thomas McMahon: I’m the senior business development manager, which in more normal terms means I’m responsible for onboarding new business to ClickBank, which for us means new sellers who have a product that are looking for affiliates or looking for a platform to sell on. Or it could be new affiliates looking for offers to promotor it could be channel partnerships. Like some of the ones we’ve set up with ShipOffers or fully accountable or different brands like that, that we can get good channel partnerships in place with.
Dee Braun: Gotcha. Okay. So, ClickBank has been around for a long time. I know, because I have too, and I remember when it started.
Thomas McMahon: 22 years ago.
Dee Braun: Yeah, I know. It’s amazing. Isn’t it? So, ClickBank, it is not a normal, what I always have called an aggregator, right. A normal aggregator to me is cj.com, shareasale.com, maybe Avant.
Thomas McMahon: And some of the CPA networks maybe.
Dee Braun: Right, but ones that are very valuable, they have built in affiliates. They’ve got… It’s another channel direct response can absolutely take advantage of. But ClickBank does a bit more than that. Right? Explain what, I don’t even know where to categorize them, because they have a marketplace where customers can go and just look for stuff.
Thomas McMahon: Yeah, exactly. Well, sort of, yeah. So the big difference with ClickBank is that ClickBank is the actual retailer of all the products that you see on ClickBank. Right. So with other aggregators, like some of the ones you mentioned, they may be aggregating offers or products. But they’re not the retailer for them. The customer will still go check out through whatever domain-name.com is being featured there. Right.
With ClickBank, if you find a ClickBank offer in our marketplace, or if you’re on someone’s email list and one gets promoted to you, you would eventually wind up on a ClickBank order form. And we were going to actually handle that transaction, which is a pretty unique thing, like you mentioned, and it allows us to operate a little differently. It really opened up our feature set for our clients. That would be things like we actually own the affiliate relationship at that point, right? Since, the transaction isn’t happening on the seller’s cart, it’s happening on ClickBank’s cart, it’s technically our affiliate.
So, that means a few things. That means we owe the affiliate 1099 contracts come tax time. We are responsible for paying the affiliate, not just tracking how much to pay an affiliate. We actually settle and pay the affiliate and the seller at any given point kind of on a rolling 12, or excuse me, rolling 14 day basis. So, it takes a lot of burden off of the sellers handling large volumes of affiliates since they don’t have to now handle payments and taxes and tax remittance because we’re actually doing customer tax remittance, too. So, it frees up a lot of bandwidth for the offers that are on ClickBank.
Dee Braun: Okay. So you’re kind of like a Macy’s.
Thomas McMahon: Yeah. What I call it is that we’re kind of like an Amazon with a large eCommerce retailer, but we’re kind of built around direct response affiliate marketing. Whereas Amazon is more built for just e-comm shopping experience direct to customer. So, If you go to the ClickBank marketplace usually customers aren’t going there to buy, it’s affiliates going there for a defined offer to promote to their customers.
Dee Braun: So what type of, okay, you’re kind of a one stop shop. If you have an offer and you want to get it up and live and you don’t have the bandwidth or the personnel, I guess, to handle all of the different things that you need to handle… Clickbank is a great option. But let’s say that I have a new offer and I’m just starting out I’m a doe-eyed newbie. What do I need to have in place before you can help me?
Thomas McMahon: So you still need to host the offer somewhere, right? Meaning post-sale pages. So, like a domain name or page builder, like ClickFunnels or Kartra or some of these other ones out there, you need to be able to host the offer still. Because you’re just gonna link to the ClickBank cart with our checkout page. Right. So you’re just gonna link to that and we’ll send people back through an upsell flow. So you still need to have the offer built out with the copy and be able to deliver the product. We can deliver the product a little bit. If it’s the right type of small digital offer, like an info product.
But in most cases, it’s probably a better customer experience if they’re getting it directly from yourself as well, kind of like fulfilled by Amazon, for example, or your own fulfillment contentment kind of tie in and still provide that customer fulfillment. So, you still need the offer, the sales pages a CRM, somewhere to manage the customers once you get them out of ClickBank, service provider, maybe sometimes it’s the same thing for people. It’s actually going to be able to monetize those customers and speak to them after the first purchase. That’s the short part right there.
I’m sure there’s more, you can tack onto there depending on how advanced they’re getting. But at the root of it, you need the offer. You need the sales pages, you need a way to collect those customers into a CRM and actually fulfill on that offer and then engage with those customers long term.
Dee Braun: Is it worth it to talk to you guys before you have all of that? I mean, can you give good recommendations on: I need to find a good CRM. I need to find a good email client. Do you have any recommendations for a good copywriter or a funnel expert that could help me dial this in?
Sure. Yeah. I ended up doing a lot of that. Right. I’ll chat with people who are at various stages of crafting an offer or they might have one fully built out, but it’s not quite, there, it needs some tweaking or something. So, I’ve helped consult from zero to a hundred. If you want to call it that. So, we can help with that. We don’t do a lot of it in house. We’re more refer out. And that’s actually …now I lean on groups like yours on Facebook a lot to tie people together.
We have a, it’s not a formal partnership. But we can have a Lander that Stefan Georgi and Justin Goff built for us for their copy accelerator, just going to help ease the burden of intro sometimes. Cause that can be a lot. So we refer people out to the big hubs first. And then if those don’t pan out we can make some one-off introductions and things like that. The short answer is yes, we can help with connecting and tying people together. Because, as you are aware, when you have 22 years in the marketplace, you acquire a pretty strong network of people from all over the place.
Dee Braun: Right. What do you think ClickBank’s biggest advantages over, and I know it is comparing apples to oranges, Thomas. I know it is, but some of the other platforms that people can use, like HasOffers, Everflow, Post Affiliate Pro – whatever those are – CAKE. What do you think the biggest advantage is?
Thomas McMahon: Yeah. Good question. I think there’s a few. One is that we have one of the larger affiliate networks actually out there, right? So we’re looking for exposure to new affiliates. There’s going to be very few places are going to have the marketplace and visibility in front of hundreds of thousands of affiliates. Right. Kind of in the direct response space. The other part is that with ClickBank as the retailer, you get access to our merchant processing, which is limitless quote unquote, right? Our biggest vendors had a 3.5 million dollar sales day, for example, which, lining up the merchant processing to do even half of that, or even a 10th of that in a day as a new offer is not always easy. Right?
You have to kind of line up different merchant processing. So, that alone is pretty valuable right there. And then the other part that we already hit on is our retailer status, meaning that we’re taking off the burden as you scale of all the merchant processing, the affiliate payments, affiliate 1099 contracts, the tax remittance, all these things you just don’t have to think about it anymore. You can just focus on making sure the rest of your business can scale, whether it’s hiring different tech that you need to hire for things like that.
Dee Braun: Awesome. I did an interview with Stephan Georgi, long ago, and we were talking about mindset. And, I had mentioned that years ago, I used to teach people how to make money online and as affiliates. And we could tell from the get go, no matter what their knowledge level was, which ones were going to make it and which ones weren’t. And it was, we called it the umph factor. Right. So what is something that you see with new people coming in where you’re like, okay, these guys are going to go. What do you think is one of the most important ingredients?
Thomas McMahon: That’s a great question. Yeah. Cause it’s funny. Cause we try to qualify, right? The new leads, if you will, coming in from a business development perspective, like how likely they are to scale and stuff like that. And what happens a lot is they’ll have a big brand, big team, lots of resources, but there’s just something that doesn’t sit right in the gut. Right. You’re like, I don’t think this is really going to go anywhere. Right. with, you know, a new direct response avenue they might be exploring or something like that. So what I kind of look for is the mindset around generosity and empathy, if you will, right. That they’re willing to acquire customer and kind of add value to the customer, add value to the affiliate they’re working with, to the platform they’re on.
And by doing all those three things, right, they’re going to get value in turn from acquiring a mass amount of customers and being able to monetize later kind of thing. Cause I think that’s what you start to realize is getting a good customer is rarely cheap, right. It takes some money in play and that’s where affiliate marketing is different, where you’ll pay for a customer after the purchase versus paying like Facebook for exposure or something like that. But the cost to acquire that customer might be the same or higher potentially. Right. But if you can break even on it, you’re not just looking to make a buck and kind of squeeze as much cash as you can out of everything, you’ll have a lot more likelihood of success.
And the big thing too, is just the willingness to invest into a new revenue stream and business model and really learn it. I think what I get burnt on sometimes is just the people that are. “okay, How long is it going to take and what is it going to be?” You know? Right. And almost like treat it like an agency, right? Instead of looking at it as a completely new business channel business, almost kinda like a completely new business. And when they do that, they start to wrap their head around. Okay, let’s take the time and resources to really learn this and really meet people face to face and kind of become a player in the space and not just sit on the sidelines and hope you get something for minimal investment. Right. If everything’s just ROI based, it becomes data and it’s not people to people anymore.
Dee Braun: Very good point. So, okay. Walk me through just a bird’s eye view of the process of getting into ClickBank and getting an offer live.
Thomas McMahon: Yeah. So from a high level view, you know, you kind of sign up for a ClickBank account, which is free to do if you have an offer right here being a seller on ClickBank, you then go and kind of add your products in, and you’re not so much uploading products. You are just kind of building out price points and SKUs, which tells Clickbank what to generate on the order form. So you’re just kind of logging in like price points and titles and things like that. You get those submitted and kind of put it in your sales pages and things like that. You submit those. That goes to our compliance team, right? Since we’re the retailer, we have to be pretty careful with FTC and FDA compliance. That will get reviewed for those metrics, and some other things like disclaimers and making sure that ClickBank pay links are built correctly. And the trust badge that we need to be have on sales pages is there – little things like that.
If that’s all good, it’ll go through and get approved. If not, it’ll get kicked back with a detailed like, Hey, can you please change these items? And once it’s approved, it goes live or it gets kind of active if you will, and you can tie the funnel together. Once all that’s done, it’s just a matter of kind of integrating with your third-party software. Like let’s say like a CRM, like get response or something you’ll be tying into can actually collect the customer data out of Clickbank once a purchase happens. And once it’s there, or even before that point, really you can start running traffic through it to test.
But then it’s just a matter of getting affiliates on it and getting it tested with your own traffic. And making sure things are backing out and kind of just starting to operate your business that way. So it’s like a recap, right? It’s just creating the account, submitting the products and kind of different variables there to our compliance team to review and approve. And then once it’s active, it’s k
Dee Braun: Gotcha. So, okay. Your top sellers – partners, are you call them platinum partners, correct?
Thomas McMahon: Yeah. Yeah. Clickbank platinum clients are ones that do over $250,000 a year in revenue that could be seller or affiliate.
Dee Braun: So, what are some secrets that they do to get, I mean, I suppose that secrets come in different areas, like type of offer type of funnel you know, what your demographic is that you’re shooting for and getting partners.
Thomas McMahon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess I’ll start pretty high level. And if you want to drill down, please guide me that direction. All of our top clients who are getting success are operating on what I would call a customer acquisition model versus a front end profit model. Now, ideally all of them are making a front end profit to some degree, but some aren’t but they’re paying a lot of commission upfront to acquire customer from affiliate traffic. And then they’re monetizing that customer later, whether it’s with recurring billing, cross sells to other offers or that sellers not affiliate themselves and promoting other offers to that customer list they’re building to kind of monetize later.
So in a nutshell, right, that’s like what’s happening on an economic level. Now backing into like niches and offer types, right? There’s not too much secret sauce other than the big guys are targeting usually wide audience offers with specific pain points, right? So let’s say it’s back pain, right? And they’re targeting, let’s say, people over 50, right? That’s a very wide audience they can kind of go after, or it could be anyone with back pain, but usually it’s more, a little more targeted than that. And that can open up more scale, but now, right, to be platinum it’s, you know, the bar is $250,000, which for some people is nothing for other people that’s everything.
So you can go more niche and kind of still hit that platinum level, right, with a more specific audience, more specific pain points, things like that. You might just have to, let’s say hustle a little more for affiliate traffic and kind of like kind of work your way into funnels or into affiliate sends and stuff like that.
Dee Braun: So that’s interesting about the customer acquisition, because that really works well with one of the things I preach constantly, which is knowing your numbers. Because the people who can afford to break even, or lose money upfront because they monetize on the backend. They’re going to end up making more money in the long run, but you have to know your numbers to be able to do that. Right.
I mean, you can’t pay out a hundred percent commission on everything and then make, you know, not know how to monetize on the back end or even know what you’re going to make on the backend. So that’s where your AR series and your follow-up sequences and promoting external offers and all that kind of stuff comes in.
Thomas McMahon: Exactly. Yeah. That’s why, when I’m kind of qualifying someone new that I’m on the phone with and stuff trying figure out how scalable their offer is. Let’s assume it’s a wide audience, right? Decent sales page, things like that, you know, checks those boxes. What I kind of move into is like, okay, what’s the initial price point? What’s the conversion rate there? Okay, cool. What’s your average order value through the front end flow. Right?
Turn it back into how healthy their upsell funnel is, you know, kind of direct upsell funnel that the affiliate would be getting paid on. So, okay. And then what can you afford to pay an affiliate commission there? And usually that’s a whole conversation around how much should they pay? How much can they pay all that kind of stuff. And then it’s kinda figuring out, okay, well that’s either on par with what other top offers in your space are doing or it’s lower or it’s higher, right.
It’s kind of figuring out where those are. Often it’s lower, right? They want to pay 20%, 30% or something to an affiliate where it’s like, well, your competitors are paying 50 to 75 to100 percent on the front end. And they’re like what? How are we going to do that? Well, they’re paying to acquire the customer they’ll monetize later. And that’s why we’re so back into what’s your customer lifetime value. Right. Kind of clarifying that because if I find out their customer lifetime value is 5X, what their front end acquisition is, I can start to coach them on, well, you might be able to afford to pay an affiliate more than 20 or 30%. Right. If you can break even, or even make some money on the front end, but still monetize later. And that’s when their wheels start to get turning in their head. They go, Oh, okay. Start thinking of figuring it out.
Yeah. Because I think the missed assumption probably from like Amazon and Shopify, right. And kind of those e-com brands out there is that affiliates are cheap, right. It’s five to 20 to 30%. I mean, just this week, Amazon cut its Amazon Associate’s Program from what the average was eight or 10% down to 3% for affiliates their Amazon Associates. Right. So Amazon is cutting everything off the top. So, affiliates will be making less and people are used to paying five to 25% probably to affiliates on like an influencer basis or just kind of smaller, maybe blogger affiliates and things like that.
Dee Braun: Right. There’s a vast difference between payouts in the influencer blogger space and indirect response.
Thomas McMahon: Exactly. Right. So it’s kind of, yeah, it’s kind of pivoting their mindset around this is your existing business model. Right. And this is how this is working for you to play in direct response. This is a whole different leg of kind of your business that you can build out. And this is why it’s valuable. Right. And once I kind of start understanding that, it’s oh okay, great.
Dee Braun: So, do you have any advice for somebody coming in that, you know, you start talking about, you know, AOV and LTV and they’re like, I don’t even have a clue how to figure that out.
Thomas McMahon: Yeah. Well, on the front end, right. I’ve got the ClickBank commission calculator kind of send people they’ve just helped some plug in their numbers and mess around and it’s rough. Right? It’s cause you don’t always know all their costs of goods, but there’s some fields in there where they can plug in their cost of goods or fulfillment or average refund rate. And they start to back into where their break even line is at least most brands that are kind of set up, know that, but if you’re brand knew that you might not.
But it’s kinda like, it’s kind of figuring out A) What’s your cost of doing business on say a month to month basis, right. If you’re purely digital, it’s probably going to be lower than someone selling physical products, but you still have things like web hosting and tools you’re paying for.
Right. So it could be a couple hundred to a couple thousand dollars a month depending on your level of just overhead. And then it’s backing into, okay, well how much do I need to make a month to cover that? Now what scale does that allow me to do that? Right. If you’re making 50%, you don’t have to sell as many products as if you were only making 10%, but could you sell 10 times as many products if you were paying an affiliate 90% versus 50% kind of thing.
So it’s playing with those numbers to figure out where you can kind of back into a breakeven run rate for you, where they can start to monetize the customer later and back into it. But then the hard part, right, is figuring out where the holes are in your business, the leaky bucket, if you will, and where you’re paying for things, or you’re not even realizing it. And maybe not completely understanding revenue streams and profitability as you expand.
And that’s one reason why we partnered up with the new Fisher and fully accountable, so we can refer clients over to them because that’s where they’ve really helped kind of econ direct response brands, be able to plug those holes, identify revenue streams, and then scale from there. That’s where I’ve seen businesses get a lot healthier and offers get a lot healthier.
Dee Braun: Okay. So what else do platinum partners do differently?
Thomas McMahon: They really invest in relationship affiliate management, right? I think the, I’m sure you’ve experienced this quite a bit, but I think sometimes affiliate managers are treated like over or sometimes underpaid virtual assistants and that’s a recipe for stagnation and frustration on pretty much all parties. I think that’s where people like Amber Spears and Alona with East Fifth Avenue who really helped raise the bar and kind of train people on a higher level where they’re taking people and going,
Hey know your affiliate manager is a sales person, right. And if that’s you in that role right now, that’s fine, but you need to be a business development salesperson with the ability to cut deals and kind of negotiate and not just be a repository for like affiliate swipe copy and followups. Right. So if you’re actually going out there networking face to face, which is probably the biggest differentiator to success and failure, if you’ve got a decent offer is actually networking face to face.
Now, right now, as we record this, right, it’s in the COVID-19 pandemic. So, people aren’t doing that, but it’s being out there in person or at least online and actually meeting people face to face, cutting deals, and shaking hands and just getting to know someone on a human level. That’s the biggest driver and that’s what I try to push people to really do, right. If people are just staying at home all the time, they can get success, but it’s going to be small.
And then if they don’t have someone to really cut deals in an aggressive nature, when I say aggressive, I don’t mean pushy. I just mean they’re incentivized on growth and scale, right? That’s their main focus with affiliate channels. That’s where a big lever is missing with people who aren’t finding success. Right? They might be a offer creator. They might be a CEO level who has just put something out there and they haven’t invested in that role. And they’re just hoping it’s going to get traction instead of investing the resources to make traction happen.
Dee Braun: Definitely. So relationships equal dollars.
Thomas McMahon: Yeah. It’s that human to human person to person. Right. I think, you know, people do business with people, not businesses and is investing into those relationships, which can make a big play. And some people don’t want to do it. Right. And they just want to pay a CPA network. They’re going to go put their offer out there and kind of pay a CPM to people that just get blast and stuff, which is fine. I’ll get some success. Right.
But for the big scale that happens, you see people getting those friendships created, right. Are at least those one to one relationships happening. And that’s where more money comes from, right? Because you might get another upsell flow, you might get their products into Europe. Upsell flow, you might cut kind of autoresponder deals. You start to get more invested and go deeper with that channel and more money comes from that, more customers comes from that by nature of having a stronger relationship.
Dee Braun: Definitely. Do you have a third one?
Thomas McMahon: For what they’re doing differently? I think the big thing is the testing. Right. That’s, you know, it’s kind of beaten to death. Like always be testing, test everything, et cetera, but it’s kind of what they’re testing. Right. So when I say what they’re testing, obviously, like front end conversions is big. But it’s where I see people kind of stagnate is they’ll get an offer built with upsells and all that kind of stuff. They’ll get some swipe copy made. And then they’ll only test, let’s say like headline or kind of initial Lander conversions.
And they won’t move on to order form conversion kind of testing or kind of split testing, different things in the order form. They won’t move into average order value testing and trying different price points and the upsell flows or different offers and the upsell flows. They won’t keep split testing swipe file copy, or other swiped material, which when you have a top funnel copy, right? Like swipe copy. Whether it’s like someone using different email templates or ad kind of images for Facebook or something, that’s where big levers can be pulled.
If you can get a 1% lift on your swipe file that results in huge conversion impacts across the whole funnel. Cause you’re looking at the top where everyone else is looking at this copy. So, that’s where I think a lot of people stagnate, it’s just not split testing the right things or at the right times. And that’s kind of what I meant by the leaky bucket before not identifying like other lever’s to pull in your revenue streams.
Dee Braun: Right and split testing really never stops, or it shouldn’t.
Thomas McMahon: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right. It’s no, you should always be coming back and kind of trying to beat your controls. You should always be split testing new things in every kind of part of your funnel, but it’s kind of knowing where the low hanging fruit is at any given point in time. And that will change as you pick that fruit. Right. As you get your average order value improved, right. Maybe you improve it by 50%, getting that next 10% might be a lot harder than changing your swipe file copy and getting 1% boost there. Right.
So it’s kind of being able to identify what to work on now. I’m not just keep hammering the same thing and going, Oh, I’m split testing. Right. Well it’s like, okay, you’re getting incremental lifts instead of, you know, bigger levers to pull over here on this different parts of the funnel or different angles of the copy or something like that.
Dee Braun: Okay. So I have a sort of philosophical question because I’ve heard both sides of it. So I’ve talked to partners who have one offer and they concentrate on that one offer. And I asked one of them a couple of weeks ago, why don’t you have more offers? And her answer was “every time I think about going and getting a new offer, the offer I have suffers when I’m not testing, and tweaking and working on it.” Then the other side of that is broaden your base, not having all your eggs in one basket. Right. And having multiple offers. What do you see? I mean, there’s probably not a one size fits all answer for everyone, but what do you see in that realm?
Thomas McMahon: Well, I think if we look at that example specifically, right? There’s a few questions I’d be asking them, which is, why is success of that offer determined on you having focused on it? Right. It sounds like a hiring problem that if they don’t have someone, or a team that can continue to operate that offer, if it’s solely on one person looking at it. Right. So, that’s a different question, In general, right, I think there’s two ways to look at it.
One is you’ve got a single offer going, let’s say it’s scaling really well. It’s doing multiple six, seven, maybe eight figures, right? Like you don’t want to move away from that. That’s your quote, unquote, your moneymaker, that’s your customer, your main revenue stream coming in. But there’s things to consider. Why do offer stagnate? Right. In my opinion, they don’t stagnate just because the copy gets tired. The copy gets tired because there’s not fresh eyes on it. Right.
It’s the same people that are used to this offer seeing it. So, that’s a top of funnel problem where you’re doubling down on maybe the same affiliate relationships, maybe the same channel streams, maybe it’s time to diversify into Facebook, Google, YouTube or tic-tok. Right. Probably not that, but maybe.
Expose your channels, right. To get in front of new audiences to kind of open it up. It might not convert as well as your original one, but it can still be profitable. That’s one thing to look at as a leader, where are your customers coming in from if your offer is starting to flag? The other side too is oftentimes you can still have your single offer. Let’s say again, in studying, I said back pain earlier, let’s say it’s a back pain offer. Unless you’re targeting a certain demographic, you can still pivot with that same offer into different types of angles for that offer. So, you don’t have to build a whole new company, right, or business, or kind of different hook and it works, or excuse me, that would be a different hook, but a whole different product. And you still use that same product.
But you can just kind of start to frame it and spin it around a different angle. You’re solving for, to a different customer base to open you up to different affiliate channels or different customer acquisition channels. So, that’s where I think you can keep the same focus going, but start to invest in different hooks and angles. It might not beat your control. Right. But again, if we use the mindset that customer acquisition is the goal, not front end profit. If you’re still acquiring customers on a new channel for let’s say zero dollars or break even, it still can be successful because maybe it opens you up to a whole different subset of affiliates.
And it might not be as many, but still more than what you had originally. I’m sorry. I don’t know, I might have gotten into the weeds there. I don’t know if that answered your question very directly.
Dee Braun: That was great input though. What are the advantages of coming out with a second offer? You know, additional offers?
Thomas McMahon: Yeah. Well, a few things, right? There’s, there’s the advantage of breaking into a whole different customer base that you weren’t able to serve before or target before? I think it’s where you see people go from, you know, greens powders to something. It might still be a supplement, but it’s a completely different kind of like turmeric, right? Cause it’s targeting a very different pain point that you can now that the target is so wide, but it still speaks to your core competencies of copy and making offers and having a supplement brand and that kind of stuff. It gives you more legs to stand on with your stool instead of one offer that might tank. But again, why do offers tank? My opinion is rarely that the offers bad, if it was good before it’s economy of scales might breakdown, it’s top end acquisition channels might dry up, you need different sources.
So, I think you can kind of solve that different ways. But the other thing too is if you have more offers under your belt that are good solid offers, you can start to cross sell more. You’re less reliant on maybe affiliate traffic coming in or being an affiliate yourself. So if you’ve got, you know, a back pain offer, let’s say, and you’ve got that converting well and you start to line up other offers. Even if it’s complimentary to some degree, you can start to cross sell your buyers into that later and keep more of that profit margin for yourself and monetize that customer easier. Right. Instead of just being an affiliate, or kind of monetizing them in different ways, the same thing. So it starts to even make your initial offer healthier, even if it’s not directly tied to it.
Dee Braun: Very good. So tell me about your money calls and who are they open to?
Thomas McMahon: Yeah. Yeah. So the money call ClickBank is kind of a weekly call that happens with right now, Ryan and Darcy are kind of the hosts of it. And they highlight top offers that are new to the platform or existing doing new launches or just new offers that have come onto ClickBank with a good track record of success. And it’s designed to kind of put it out there in front of affiliates. So, there’s more exposure to different types of offers, new offers, et cetera. It’s every week on Thursdays, 11:00 AM, I think mountain time right now, maybe 10:00 AM. I’ll be speaking there.
We don’t open it too wide to everybody, but if you go to moneycall.clickbank.com, you’ll find the opt-in for it and get signed up there. So, when I say we don’t open up to everyone, right, we aren’t like doing ads to it and driving many options to it. We try to keep the quality pretty high, but obviously anyone listening to this from your network is going to be good quality. Soif you go to, I don’t know if you have the ability to put links on wherever this will be, but if you just put moneycall.clickbank.com again, you’ll be able to get opted into that. It’s not only a zoom kind of webinar model.
There’s also an email blast and replays that go out around it. So, you’ll get kind of exposure in multiple ways to the new offers coming into ClickBank and new launches and things like that. And it’s across multiple niches, so it might not be relevant. And we also do some like teaching spots in there too. We’re all out there and industry experts come on and kind of teach them a subject once a month.
Dee Braun: Awesome. Okay. So, let’s say that I’m fairly new to the industry and I want to learn and I am on fire to learn cause I am going to succeed at this. So, you mentioned Amber and Alona’s program, which is eastfifthavenue.com for affiliate managers. And you’ve got your money call. What are some other resources where people in our space can really – that are valuable, that are worth it – and not just worth the money, but worth the time because it really sucks to invest time and then you realize, okay, this person’s an idiot or that was really not good advice. You know what I mean? I have videos somewhere where you’ve done some pretty awesome interviews and stuff.
Thomas McMahon: Thanks. Yeah. So there’s a few places. Well, I guess if anyone wants to hit me up with specific questions on what to learn on, because it’s kind of hard to answer it on a general topic, right? Cause there’s different people I go to for different things. Like if it’s like, I want to know about Facebook ads, it’s like, well, here’s the top three courses in my opinion where you should learn that from, it might be a thousand dollar course kind of thing.
But it’s like, if you want to do Facebook ads in this way, this is what you want to go to. Or here’s a free resource you can learn from to start with. So yeah, there’s my LinkedIn. You can do too. And actually here, let me back up. I’m starting to compile all the videos I’m doing into my own personal sites, thomasjmcmahon.com which is live now it’s getting more flushed out by the time this goes live. We’ll probably be more flushed out with all these kind of things. And that’s where I’ll be kind of posting a lot of the videos like Clickbank’s doing that I’m kind of doing myself and the different learning resources around ClickBank specifically.
And then if anyone wants to hit me up for just specific, how do I learn XYZ thing, right? Whether it’s affiliate management or copywriting or whatever, you know, Facebook ad buying, whatever it might be. I might have a better specific answer for that because it’s, yeah, it’s pretty wide a lot of places to learn from, but yeah, I’m pretty careful with content. I consume now too so.
Dee Braun: There’s not enough hours in the day. So what did I miss Thomas, what should I have asked that I didn’t?
Thomas McMahon: I think some of the common questions I get right, are kind of like, you know, how much should I be paying an affiliate because, right. We’ve talked a very high level about customer acquisition and front end profit and that, but we haven’t gotten into the details on that too much. I guess to quickly answer that, right, it’s, you know, that this is a general benchmark, if you will. But like the typical, the average, kind of order value I’m seeing across the network right now is in that like kind of 50 to $80 range. Depending, if it’s like a front end digital, or excuse me, if it’s a purely digital or if it has supplements in it, as well, with physical kind of things in there.
And the payouts on those are anywhere from 75 to a 100 percent to affiliates in general, right? So, it kind of starts to back into what you need to pay an affiliate to be equal on payouts assuming conversions aren’t there. So, that might be 30 to a hundred dollars to an affiliate commission, right? For the funnel to kind of start to get real traction going, assuming again, conversion rates are on par with other offers in your space. Other things are just like who are you going to need on your team? I think is a big one. What different kind of hats you wear or that you need to have on your team to kind of have success. Right?
And we’ve kind of touched on this, on this call, but there’s like the CEO level, right? Directing the show kind of knowing what to do next at the right time to do it. And there’s the copywriter, right? Who needs to be able to do good converting compelling copy for a variety of different types of funnels, whether it’s swipe copy, whether it’s front end Lander or have the ability to kind of get that copy done.
There’s the affiliate management business development side of things, making sure that new business is happening, new traffic channels are getting exposure. And then there’s the tech side, right? Having someone that can integrate or at least having the knowledge to integrate or get that done. So, that’s kind of four spots that I see that need to be filled, because in my experience, a single person can take an offer to seven figures.
But it’s probably going to be really stressful from that six to seven figure growth range. And then, you’re going to be wearing all those different hats or probably contracting out for different parts of that. And once you get to this kind of seven figure, multiple six figure level is where you really need to hire for some of those roles and kind of remove yourself out of the process.
Dee Braun: Gotcha. Gotcha. Well I really appreciate your time with this and I learned stuff, so I think that’s awesome. And I will put links to the latest stuff we talked about, sorry about the dogs in the background. Oh my goodness. Okay. I don’t know what he’s barking at, but he thinks he’s the big man on campus. Anyway, thank you very much for your time.
Thomas McMahon: Of course, Dee, I trust this was helpful. Yeah, let me know how I can keep adding value here, wherever this might be. And then yeah. Thanks for having me on. It’s been great.